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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Australana zabit, tak nudne video jsem
      jeste nevidel... ;-)<br>
      <br>
      Kazdopadne mu kapacita klesla z 10.6 na 7.8 uF, jestli jsem dobre
      pochopil, coz bych se neodvazil nazvat zanedbatelnou kapacitou ani
      zlomkem puvodni kapacity, IMHO zadne drama pro takove to blokovani
      digitalnich obvodu...<br>
      <br>
      Dne 14. 12. 2014 11:29, Marek Sembol napsal(a):<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CADUfZ8GeqAEnBcy_bU4+deEWJQuidUq5xUhCp1=4ETRdk+sGjA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Berte to jako fakt. Ano, klesa a klidne na zlomek
        puvodni kapacity.
        <div>Tady k tomu ma australan video: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2MQyQUkwmMk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2MQyQUkwmMk</a></div>
        <div>Marek</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">2014-12-14 11:06 GMT+01:00 Jaroslav
          Buchta <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:jaroslav.buchta@hascomp.cz" target="_blank">jaroslav.buchta@hascomp.cz</a>></span>:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
              <div>Tak ja teda nevim, ale kdyz ma kondenzator uvedeny
                nejake jmenovite hodnoty a tolerance, nemely by v ramci
                techto hodnot platit tak nejak zaroven?<br>
                Ma to fakt nekdo overeno, ze ta kapacita takhle az moc
                klesa? Ja bych predpokladal tak tech cca 20% co vyrobce
                uvadi jako toleranci kapacity, vic ne...<br>
                <br>
                Dne 14. 12. 2014 8:46, Marek Sembol napsal(a):<br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div class="h5">
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">No ta kapacita (jeji pokles) zalezi
                      na hodne faktorech a obecne bude typ od typu jina
                      - jinak by byl vas zivot prilis jednoduchy:) 
                      <div>Obecne zalezi na hmote (C0G jsou na tom lip
                        nez X7R ci X5R. Ty jsou na tom lip nez Y5U),
                        velikosti (vetsi pouzdra jsou na tom lepe), DC
                        (ty /50V se chovaji pri 5V podstatne lepe, nez
                        ty /6.3V), kapacite (ty s vetsi kapacitou na tom
                        jsou hur)</div>
                      <div>A mnozi vyrobci pro jistotu tuto informaci
                        (pokles kapacity s napetim) celkem kvalitne
                        taji, dopatrat se grafu byva mnohdy nadlidsky
                        vykon)</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>A k vasi otazce 47uF kondenzatoru - vzhledem
                        ke kapacite a vzhledem k provozovani na napeti
                        blizkemu maximu - tak ta kapacita bude
                        pravdepodobne zanedbatelna:)</div>
                      <div>Marek</div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">2014-12-14 6:56 GMT+01:00
                        Jaroslav Buchta <span dir="ltr"><<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:jaroslav.buchta@hascomp.cz"
                            target="_blank">jaroslav.buchta@hascomp.cz</a>></span>:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            <div>To je zajimave tema, o teto vlastnosti
                              jsem abych rekl pravdu zatim nemel
                              tuseni...<br>
                              <br>
                              To kdyz mam treba kondenzator 47uF/5V tak
                              jakou kapacitu tedy bude mit pri 3.3V a
                              5V?<br>
                              Z hlediska blokovani napajeni digitalnich
                              IO, kdy se stridaji tyto velkokapacitni a
                              100n keramicke C, je potreba se tim
                              zabyvat? Nebo je to horsi, nez kdyz tam
                              dam tantaly?<br>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                              Dne 14. 12. 2014 0:56, Vláďa Anděl
                              napsal(a):<br>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <blockquote type="cite">
                                  <div>obávám se, že situace bývá ještě
                                    horší. Pro ten rezonanční kmitočet
                                    nemůžeme uvažovat jen indukčnost
                                    toho kondu, ale je na nějakém
                                    reálném tišťáku a ten si k tomu
                                    přidá ještě svoji indukčnost. Tady
                                    pomůže snad jen paralelní řada
                                    kondenzátorů aby spoje byly víc
                                    širší než delší a záleží, jak se to
                                    podaří geometricky rozmístit.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    Anděl<br>
                                     <br>
                                    Dne 13.12.2014 v 22:53 Pavel Hudeček
                                    napsal(a):<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite">
                                    <p>On to není "pokles kapacity s
                                      frekvencí", ale zánik kapacity nad
                                      rezonancí. Prostě se odečítá XL-Xc
                                      a nad rezonancí zvítězí XL. S tím
                                      se nic udělat nedá. Je to
                                      principiální. Kond v určitém
                                      pouzdře má určitou Ls, která u
                                      MLCC nijak zvlášť nezávisí na C.
                                      No a čím větší je kapacita, tím
                                      nižší je frekvence, od které se
                                      celek chová jako indukčnost. Je
                                      tedy zároveň jasné, že pokud se
                                      takových C zapojí více paralelně,
                                      budou se nad fr chovat jako L, i
                                      kdyby jich bylo milion.</p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Zajímavější je paralelní řazení
                                      různých kapacit pro
                                      širokospektrální blokování. Dejme
                                      tomu, že spojíme Ca s fr 1 MHz a
                                      Cb s fr 10 MHz, přičemž budou mít
                                      pro jednoduchost nulový ESR:</p>
                                    <p>1. Do 1 MHz je to celé C.</p>
                                    <p>2. Pro 1-10 MHz je to
                                      divný paralelní rezonanční obvod.</p>
                                    <p>2.a) Těsně nad 1 MHz je Ca jakoby
                                      velice malá indukčnost (po
                                      odečtení zbývá malá XL), takže
                                      jakýkoli paralelní C s tím nic
                                      nenadělá, tady to bude indukčnost.</p>
                                    <p>2.b) Někde mezi 1-10 MHz je
                                      rezonance, tady nastane přechod
                                      mezi L a C.</p>
                                    <p>2.c) Těsně pod 10 MHz je Cb
                                      jakoby velice velká kapacita (po
                                      odečtení zbývá malá Xc), takže
                                      tady je to určitě zase kapacita.</p>
                                    <p>3. Od 10 MHz indukčnost.</p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Dostali jsme tedy obvod, který
                                      je do 1 MHz C, pak do něco mezi
                                      1-10 je L, pak zas C a nad 10
                                      znovu L. </p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Pokud chceme opravdu dosáhnout
                                      širokopásmového blokování, musíme
                                      paradoxně zvýšit ESR všech kondů,
                                      kromě nejmenšího. V našem případě
                                      musíme ESR u Ca zvednout na
                                      takovou hodnotu, aby jeho R byl
                                      vyšší, než bude mít Cb svoji Xc
                                      při 1 MHz. Pak se 2 změní takto:</p>
                                    <p>2.a) Ca je odpor se zanedbatelnou
                                      XL, Cb je Xc a je menší než R Ca,
                                      takže výsledkem je C s paralelním
                                      R.</p>
                                    <p>2.b) Cb je Xc a klesá, takže
                                      výsledkem je stále lepší kapacita.</p>
                                    <p>2.c) Cb je velmi malá Xc, takže
                                      je to stejné jako v předchozím
                                      případě.</p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Máme tedy trochu horší C, ale je
                                      to C až do 10 MHz. A také
                                      vysvětlení, proč je na blokování
                                      vhodné používat kondy s VF
                                      mizerným dielektrikem.</p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>PH</p>
                                    <p><br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Od: gatilo <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:gatilo@centrum.cz"
                                        target="_blank">gatilo@centrum.cz</a></p>
                                    <blockquote>Pravda, pravda, nejak
                                      jsem ty rozmery domotal, 10uF/100
                                      je az v 2220<br>
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C5750X7S2A106M230KB"
                                        target="_blank">http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C5750X7S2A106M230KB</a><br>
                                      O tom varikapovem chovani vim,
                                      proto jsem pokukoval po 100V, aby
                                      to<br>
                                      bylo pouzitelne i pri 30-40V.
                                      Bohuzel, jednoduche pravidlo, cim
                                      mensi<br>
                                      kond, tim vyraznejsi pokles
                                      kapacity plati jen nekdy, jindy je
                                      to prast<br>
                                      jako uhod. Myslim ze to muze byt
                                      tim, kdyz vyrobce u vetsiho kondu<br>
                                      pouzije mene vrstev. No ale s tim
                                      uz se nejak pomalu ucim zit.<br>
                                      Ted mi vic vadi pokles s
                                      frekvenci. Jak to vypada u
                                      zmineneho 10u/100<br>
                                      je v priloze, prevzato ud vyrobce,
                                      viz vyse a do 20 MHz to urcite<br>
                                      neni. 2u2/100 v 1206 ma ten zlom
                                      na 2,88MHz, coz je jiste lepsi,
                                      ale<br>
                                      ani tak zadna slava<br>
                                      (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C3216X7S2A225M160AB"
                                        target="_blank">http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C3216X7S2A225M160AB</a>)<br>
                                      Na ten soft od muraty uz jsem taky
                                      narazil, ale jeste netusim, co<br>
                                      vsechno to umi.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      Vláďa Anděl napsal:<br>
                                      > No ono to má na rezonanci
                                      nějaké miliohmy. Elity se budou
                                      chovat ještě<br>
                                      > hůř, jen ta rezonance je
                                      silně zatlumená relativně velkým
                                      ESR. Zrovna <br>
                                      > včera jsem hledal něco o
                                      keramikách a našel jsem tohle<br>
                                      > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://ds.murata.co.jp/software/simsurfing/en-us/index.html#"
                                        target="_blank">http://ds.murata.co.jp/software/simsurfing/en-us/index.html#</a><br>
                                      > Kde jste viděl 10M/100? U
                                      kterého výrobce? Je k tomu nějaký
                                      datasheet?<br>
                                      > Já tam vidím ve 1210 max
                                      2M2/100 a myslím že tak do 20 MHz
                                      je to docela<br>
                                      > v pohodě. Horší je ten pokles
                                      kapacity na 20% při max. napětí. O
                                      tom <br>
                                      > víte? U některých kapacit +
                                      napětí najdete to samé v 1210 a v
                                      1206. Ve<br>
                                      > 1206 klesá kapacita ještě
                                      víc. Mám už nějakých pár let
                                      zásobu 4M7/50 v<br>
                                      > 1812. Dnes to všichni dělají
                                      jen ve 1210 a s těmito mizernými
                                      parametry :-(<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      > Dne 13.12.2014 v 19:18 gatilo
                                      napsal(a):<br>
                                      >> Planuji doplnit domaci
                                      zasoby o moderni, vysokokapacitni
                                      keramicke C,<br>
                                      >> abych mel co sypat do
                                      spinanych zdroju, treba smd1210
                                      10uF/100V.<br>
                                      >> No a jak tak na to
                                      koukam, tak to nevypada vubec
                                      pekne, zmineny mlcc<br>
                                      >> 10 uF rezonuje kousek nad
                                      1 MHz, takze pro super duper
                                      spinaky,<br>
                                      >> co jedou na 1,5MHz se
                                      zrovna moc nehodi<br>
                                      >> (<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C3216JB1H106M160AB"
                                        target="_blank">http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlcc/detailed_information.php?lang=en&ref=jp&part_no=C3216JB1H106M160AB</a>)<br>
                                      >> Takze 2 dotazy.<br>
                                      >> Jaky je rozumny odstup
                                      pracovni a rezonancni f, aby
                                      spinak jeste<br>
                                      >> rozume fungoval<br>
                                      >> Co se stane, kdyz dam 2
                                      takove C paralelne ? Klesne
                                      rezonancni f na<br>
                                      >> polovinu ?</blockquote>
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                            href="http://www.avast.com/" target="_blank">
                            <img moz-do-not-send="true"
                              src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png"
                              border="0"> </a> </td>
                        <td>
                          <p
style="color:#3d4d5a;font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica";font-size:12pt">
                            This email has been checked for viruses by
                            Avast antivirus software. <br>
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://www.avast.com/"
                              target="_blank">www.avast.com</a> </p>
                        </td>
                      </tr>
                    </tbody>
                  </table>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            HW-list mailing list  -  sponsored by <a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.HW.cz"
              target="_blank">www.HW.cz</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Hw-list@list.hw.cz">Hw-list@list.hw.cz</a><br>
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              target="_blank">http://list.hw.cz/mailman/listinfo/hw-list</a><br>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
HW-list mailing list  -  sponsored by <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.HW.cz">www.HW.cz</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Hw-list@list.hw.cz">Hw-list@list.hw.cz</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://list.hw.cz/mailman/listinfo/hw-list">http://list.hw.cz/mailman/listinfo/hw-list</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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<table style='border-collapse:collapse;border:none;'>
        <tr>
                <td style='border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px'>
                        <a href="http://www.avast.com/">
                                <img border=0 src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" />
                        </a>
                </td>
                <td>
                        <p style='color:#3d4d5a; font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica"; font-size:12pt;'>
                                This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
                                <br><a href="http://www.avast.com/">www.avast.com</a>
                        </p>
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